[Tokenomics] The elephant in the room - Serum's FDV

I’ve just seen that there’s a forum, which is great, thx guys for creating this space.
Then I read this topic and in 5 days there was, what, one response from the team that is pretty much generic. That’s not good, considering the importance of questions. I’m pretty sure you must have a CM for a project of this size, so what gives?

edit: another response while I was writing this, so I stand corrected.

Here’s some other things for the Serum team to clarify.

When Atrix made their proposal, the Serum team tweeted about it to let the community know. Then Atrix canceled and made another proposal (which barely anyone knew about), then it passed for 1M SRM. Since it was the first few proposals, alright, maybe the Serum team made a mistake and didn’t publicize the proposals.

Then Raydium made a proposal a few days ago and it also just passed. For 4M SRM! That’s 32 million dollars! I have never, ever, ever, seen $32M of a highly liquid token be transferred on this silently in any DAO. Serum didn’t make a peep about the proposal in voting on Twitter, let alone Discord or Telegram. Who is voting on these proposals with millions of SRM so silently? Take a look at Mango, who make tweets for every single small proposal, meanwhile the Serum team doesn’t care about $32M and would rather make memes in Lisbon.

I’d also like something else to be clarified from the Serum team. Was there seriously nobody on the team that thought a “DAO” where all the supply is controlled by the foundation and VCs isn’t really a DAO? Or maybe it’s that the tokenomics and FDV are good for exit liquidity once team tokens vest?

Let’s look at the tokenomics of two Solana based DAOs:

Mango Markets:

  • DAO - 90%
  • Team - 5%
  • Community - 5%

Serum:

  • Team and Advisors - 20%
  • Locked Seed and Auction Purchasers - 4%
  • Project Contributors - 22%
  • Partner and Collaborator Fund - 27%
  • Ecosystem Incentive Fund - 27%
  • DAO - ??
  • Community - ??

It’s no surprise SRM tokenomics are a joke to everyone outside of the Serum team and VCs bubble: https://twitter.com/defiprime/status/1457498398731354115?s=20

Let me be extremely clear. I’m long SOL and the Solana ecosystem. Some time ago, I used to also be long SRM. I don’t want projects like Serum to make Solana look bad. Solana has enough of a bad rep as it is in terms of decentralization and VCs, let’s not make this worse.

I wish SRM holders best of luck.

Edit: Found this gem. Serum DAO didn’t even vote on this program, let alone approve it. The Serum team and VCs did, which I guess is the DAO. Is saying this even legal?

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And we keep waiting for a single response. Really? Not even a single response after whats been said. Disappointing

What do you want them to say?

Hi community, we have taken a look at your concerns and will be doing a 1B token burn after 7 years. This will make Serum more decentralized and provide good exit liquidity for us. Serum is the backbone of Solana. We take this very seriously. So seriously that we copied FTX’s equity model and applied it to a DAO token, and of course we can apply the same fee model a CEX has to a DEX where programs can share tokens to reduce fees. The SRM/SOL chart? Oh that’s nothing we’re the backbone of that chart.

inb4 thread gets locked, this message gets deleted, and another proposal passes silently by. How can Serum seriously call itself a DAO when amazing DAOs like Mango Markets exist?

This is getting more and more shady. Can anybody from the team at least write something? It’s been 5 days. You don’t have to craft a very high quality PR statement, just communicate…

Hey guys,
I fully agree with what you said about there not being enough SRM in the hands of the community. We were also opposed to doing liquidity mining for the purpose of TVL and our proposal was created with users at the heart of it. The goal is to distribute SRM tokens to more holders and also move more SRM on chain to actually build utility for the tokens. While its unlikely for Serum to burn their tokens, we believe that there is a path forward to realizing this FDV and the first step is to accumulate users who use their tokens on chain and care about the ecosystem.

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Yes!! Response from a project! Community SRM mining is very exciting, and I support it. I think 25% of SRM supply should be for community through mining program. So then community ownership is equal to team and VC after many years. Rest of SRM is inside DAO wallet for community to vote on what happens.

Atrix says a lot about project being 100% Serum AMM, so do you support this and would participate in distributing SRM to community @kaiba ? Are there other Serum projects the community suggest for mining program?

But also awaiting response from Serum team about before questions. Please do not lose focus.

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I would wait until after Lisbon, its very busy there.

Appreciate you responding and taking part in the discourse!

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@Defi_Degen, Atrix would definitely support this program to help distribute SRM to the community! Atrix is already a fully Serum based AMM like you said, and we educate our users on the benefits that this provides for the community and their projects every single day. I’m sure we could work in collaboration with Raydium to leverage each of our protocols’ unique strengths to distribute the SRM token much more widely to the broader community than it is currently. I’m not sure we can discuss exact amounts at this point, but your distribution suggestion seems to be in the right direction.

To add, I’ve been watching this thread for a while, as I assume many community members have been, and I think a lot of points being raised are very fair. Lots of difficult problems, but I think we can solve them and become more decentralized! Let me know if there’s any place I can be helpful to provide more feedback.

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Glad to see stakeholders taking interest and giving their valuable input.

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Unfortunately, there doesn’t seem to be an alternative. We’ll most likely be forced to do massive liquidity incentive programs, like what @Defi_Degen said above, so that community owns at least as much as the team/VC’s. This leaves Serum with a total supply of about 5B.

Only way out is for Serum to have massive trading volume, so that the burns becomes meaningful.

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Why does anyone here think Serum will burn or redistribute tokens? How could VCs show their face saying they lost 70% on a coin Alameda shilled them? The Serum team also said they’re proud of their tokenomics! Really? What a spit in the face of the community. “All major contributors” - “community” nowhere to be found: SRM Unlock. Serum has come a long way since its… | by Project Serum | Medium

For funsies, we can calculate how volume we need for a decent burn. Let’s say we want 20% of the supply to be burned in 5 years time. That seems like a good number for this insane FDV, and still leaves nice exit liquidity for the team. So with a $80B FDV, we’ll need $16B worth of burns. Let’s also assume fee reduction [Serum Fee Reduction Proposal] passes, and that all trades are using Mango’s MSRM. If we’re honest, there’s no reason for any trading project to use Serum if this fee proposal doesn’t pass. That leaves us with a 0.05% fee on every trade going to SRM burns. Counting reduced fees on stable pools, let’s say this fee averages to be 0.04%. Edit: This fee doesn’t even count the GUI rebate, but the community can do the math on that one.

$16B / 0.0004 = $40T in volume required over 5 years.
$153.8B volume per week.
$22B volume per day.

There was $45M of volume in the past 24hrs on Serum, so reaching required volume levels requires a 488x increase from today. Don’t forget that Raydium does 5x Serum’s volume right now too, and who do you think will capture more volume in the future? You know something is wrong when Shibaswap has more volume than your DEX. Oh, and burns do nothing for decentralization, because team and VC tokens aren’t burned.

shiba.jpeg

Where’s Serum’s founder, SBF? He went to math camp, so he can double check all of this. Can you also please explain why you copy pasted FTX’s cap table and fee structure for the Serum DAO? While you’re at it, please add us to the real Serum DAO. You know, the private Telegram group with the Serum team and VCs where 90% of the SRM is actually held?

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This paints a really gloomy picture ngl

Why is nobody from the team/foundation/vcs responding? if you’re preparing something or having meetings just say we will come back to this or something. It seems like you’re just ignoring the community at this point.

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I think they are busy having fun party in Lisbon. But if takes too long I and community may not be here awaiting response.

We should give them a few days after the event in Lisbon ends. And if they still keep silent, we definitely know what to do next.

I think SBF talked in Lisbon. Has anyone watched? Has he mentioned Serum at all? If someone has a link I’d be interested.

Got the chance to meet the Serum team IRL over the past few days in Lisbon (@adrian is a genuinely, good dude so let’s not jump to conclusions and pls let’s give everyone the benefit of the doubt :orange_heart:)

There is a desire to want to shift towards proper decentralized governance, and the team does recognize the current problems. They even mentioned Mango as an example to look towards and learn from. At the same time, they are super swamped here. Edward from the team did ~5 talks today and there is a lot of important IRL stuff that just takes time.

All this is just to say that I believe in the intention to do the right thing. Let’s definitely make sure all of us here in the community hold each other accountable, but Rome wasn’t built in a day either. After meeting the team members, I feel confident that if we give them the ability to do the important job of soldifying IRL relationships this week, the team will be much more responsive next week.

Building a project is hard. Building decentralized communities is even harder! It won’t be easy, but let’s just give the team some time to respond. I think if we were in their shoes we’d like the community to do the same.

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Thank you for the considerate viewpoint, I’m happy to hear the Serum team is hard at work IRL!

When the team views this thread after the event, can they explain Raydium’s grant mentioned earlier? I dug deeper, and there was no mention by Serum of the proposal and there now seems to be a significant partnership being announced between Raydium and Serum. Who voted on this, and is Serum following a governance where a centralized Serum foundation owns its own SRM to distribute and some other SRM is available for the DAO? Puzzled at how such a big partnership could pass without any community notice.

I researched Mango since it’s been mentioned so many times here, and I’m honestly blown away by their unique launch, tokenomics and their amazingly active DAO. Curious to hear how Serum will learn from them.

Reviewing all the data available it looks like credible decentralization is extremely difficult with current tokenomics, but I’m sure the team has detailed answers for every question being asked once they have time.